Does God hate Denmark?
Denmark is mostly filled with fans of drunken orgies with other men and goats who will all go to Hell!
Photo ©2008 Sodagoat (flickr)
The quote is taken from an extremely sarcastic mock discussion forum on the so-called “Landover Baptist Net”. In other words, it is clearly not to be taken too seriously (if you’re interested, the same profiles also explain why women shouldn’t use the internet…!). However, there is something paradoxical about the Danes’ relationship to religion and church, and many Expats (especially non-European) are puzzled by it. Let’s start by having a look at the statistics…
While 81.5 pct. of Danes are members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark (Folkekirken), or ”The Danish Peoples’ Church”, only 2.5 pct. attend church on a weekly basis (compared to 42 pct. of Americans). However, almost 70 pct. attend church once in a while, in connection with baptisms, weddings, funerals, Easter and Christmas services especially.
But if only 135,000 Danes use the church every week (that’s approx. 58 attendants per church in Denmark – a number most parishes don’t recognise), how come more than 80 pct. of the population (presumably) consider themselves Christian, and members of the national lutheran church?
Well, for one, membership is automatic. Danes become members of Folkekirken once they are baptised, and the church is collectively financed through church tax (0.8 pct. of total income) – totalling 79% of the church budget. This means that Danes who don’t want Folkekirken to take any part in their life (and who don’t want to help finance it), have to actively resignate their membership by contacting the local church office. Danish citizens who are members, or become members, of alternative religious communities (muslim, jewish, asser/nordic, etc.) are not considered members, and do not pay church taxes.
Second, Folkekirken is aimed at having a wide acceptance of theological views, as long as they agree with the official symbolic books as stipulated in the Danish Code of 1683. This means that you can find both very traditional and very modern churches, priests, and parishes within Folkekirken. For example, some priests condone homosexual marriages, others refuse. Some parishes don’t think twice about hiring female priests, others would never hire a female priest in the first place. Some churches are 1000 years old, others were built 10 years ago.
Another commonly cited reason is that Danes are kulturkristne – Culture Christian. In other words, many Danes question the existentialist presence of God on Earth, Heaven, and Hell. Instead, they appreciate the national Christian identity and culture, psalms, Grundtvig and Kierkegaard, the Royal family, etc. They don’t mind paying for the upkeep of church buildings, for the general services the local church provides (e.g. Christmas service, concerts, spaghetti sermons etc.), and for the general maintenance of the Christian cultural heritage, but they don’t necessarily believe in an ever-present diety.
So Danes aren’t super-religious on the whole, but Folkekirken still plays an important part in many peoples’ lives, as well as in the overall Danish identity and cultural heritage. Although most Danes have a secular and semi-practical relationship with faith and religion, I think it’s safe to say that Denmark isn’t simply a land of “drunken orgies with other men and goats”, as the fake Landover Baptist Net would have it.
In the Expat in Denmark Infocentre we have gathered a short list of English-speaking churches in the Copenhagen area. Please contribute, if you practice your faith elsewhere.
Expat in Denmark
Peter A. Lemmich
Helle Granhøj
The Copenhagen Post
Neal Greenspan
Craig Till
linnkatarina
Dear Peter:
Would you agree however that when you carefully study Danish people and society, they still have many Lutheran roots? Couldn’t one argue that parts of the Danish Model are built on Lutheran concepts?
Although Danish people are not outwardly religious, and would perhaps call themselves atheists if asked, would you agree if I argued they still in their overall character are quietly shaped by Lutheran ideas from an almost unspoken foundation of their culture?
Sometimes when I hear people say “Danes are weird,” it’s not too hard to understand how certain Danish habits can be seen as evolved from historical incidents or Lutheran praxis?
Altho’ of course there is freedom of religion in Denmark, and Danes are intensely respectful of personal conscience, isn’t this itself a Lutheran position? Those who argue that Danes “lack God,” may not have the understanding to see the subtle ways that Lutheranism still exhibits itself in Danish daily life and culture.
I would question if Folkekirken plays an important role for most Danes.
Yes, I agree (like “fe” above) that most Danes are christians (even more than the 80% that are members of Folkekirken). The reason for this is that the Danish society is to the core being based on a christian mindset (just compare the Ten Commandments to the Danish Constitution from 1848)
But I don’t think that Danes acknowledges Folkekirken as an authority on religion or spirituality, which is why so few care to show up in Church.
We are generally one of the nations to least accept authorities in general, and as Folkekirken, the Parish and the local priest and ministers only hold an informal authority (i.e. dissimilar to Police and Government) I don’t think Danes see Folkekirken as necessary for living Christian and/or spiritual lifes.
Like most other Danes, I personally I only attent Church for baptisms, weddings and funerals (or, on rare occasions, when the Church is empty) – and I have to add that I most priests that I experience also do a really, really bad job of selling Christianity! – Why is so much of what they preach about sin, guilt and fear of God?
Is it so that they sell what the customers want to buy? I.e. those 2.5% who attend church weekly are old-school hardlines who connect Church with sin, guilt and fear, and that’s what they expect to hear!? Any (monopolistic) organisation who only cater for 2.5% of it’s potential market is really making life difficult for itself!
If that’s the case, Folkekirken must change its mindset and approach to attract more Danes in the future – or become obsolete as a “Folke” kirke (peoples church) – but it wouldn’t make Danes less religious or God hate Denmark more…
“I don’t think Danes see Folkekirken as necessary for living Christian and/or spiritual lives.”
I would completely agree, Peter K.
You can see a more subtle but very active form of Christianity in Denmark’s insistence on foreign aid and social enterpreneurism like those ventures that lease bicycles to generate capital and then donate the bicycles to Africa.
Efforts like these exist in many countries, but are not yet developed as fully as in Denmark. These actions are taken outside of Folkekirken, which is a measure of success – charity has been “built” into the Danish society. Contrast this with, perhaps, the USA.
There is a lot of charitable giving there – for example, rich people will give large sums to fund hospital buildings that bear their names on large gold plaques. In contrast, ordinary Danes focus more on incorporating charitable activities into their daily lives, such as the bicycle rentals, expecting to fund smaller, incremental, practical and anonymous projects.
The Danish approach can clearly be seen as derived from Luther’s Small Catechism, which probably 90% of Danish people learned about in their confirmation classes, even if they don’t make a conscious connection, and even if they never attend church afterwards.
For example, Luther’s gloss on the 7th Commandment doesn’t stop at Thou Shalt Not Steal, but rather expands the concept: “We should fear and love God that we may not take our neighbor’s money or property, nor get them by false ware or dealing, but help him to improve and protect his property and business so that his means are preserved and his condition is improved.”
Thus to Danish people, Not Stealing means Active Helping, or charity. It’s not enough to just refrain from burglary. You also have to personally work to improve other people’s lives and conditions. This has strong ramifications beyond even bicycle charities and a large budget for foreign aid.
You could perhaps even extend it to the current financial crisis. Again, in the USA, there were few regulations on mortgages, so businesses could sell loans to people that they didn’t understand and couldn’t afford. But Denmark’s regulations prevent these kinds of loans. Couldn’t we say we might see the root of such rules in Luther’s gloss on “false ware?”
Another living example might be the current political question around gay rights that we see in several countries. Just this week, in the USA, a California court caused controversy by saying gays have the right to marry in that state.
Of course in Denmark, the issue was settled in 1989 with registered partnerships. Why is this so less contentious in Denmark than elsewhere? Could it be perhaps that in Lutheranism marriage isn’t strictly a sacrament, so even traditional Danes felt there was less at stake than in other countries where marriage has a different status?
I wouldn’t want to fall into amateur sociology, but I do think that many foreigners who look at Denmark would understand more if they had a better feeling for how subtle influences like these might be seen to play out large in Danish society.
As a foreigner living in Denmark, and being married to a Dane, I don’t think the Danes are at all religious in the traditional sense. They are an educated and well-informed society which has worked out that God and organised religion is a con-job that should be treated with disdain. They have worked out there is about as much ‘truth’ in organised religion as their is believing in Santa Claus (or should I say Julemand).
Thanks for the very interesting, and substantial (!) comments. Allow me to reply with a few personal thoughts of my own:
@Fe
The debate about how much Danes (or anyone else, for that matter) are directly or indirectly affected by the history of Folkekirken, or a particular faith (in this case lutheranism), is a difficult one. Many would argue, as you do, that lutheranism/Christianity is one of the foundations of our welfare model. They stress the message of “loving thigh neighbour” and “doing unto others as you would have them do unto you”, etc. On the other hand, others would argue it has more to do with politics: the rise and power of social democratism, and the intense nation/people-building that followed the Second Schleswig War in 1864. Maybe it’s a combination of the two?
You also air some interesting points on “active helping” and charity, and you’re right about Denmark being very different from the US. I think this has more to do with our general collectivity than with any particular church, however. In the US, charity and tything (paying to the church) is entirely individual. In Denmark, it’s mostly collective. The church is payed for, as I noted in the blog entry, through taxes (ie. no tything), and the biggest charity contributions are collected when the big charities arrange national “collection days”. On these days, everyone knows that collectors will come by sometime during the day (and most people know a collector), and everyone is very willing to give a little, not least because everyone else is giving a little!
@Peter K
I think you’re right about the aspect of authority. Folkekirken doesn’t have a formal religious authority (like a bishop or pope) – apart from the reigning monarch (H.M. Margrethe II). The church is also no longer necessary to maintain familiar or other social relations. I think this has more to do with the general societal development (especially post-1968) than it does lutheranism, however.
Regarding the motives for going to church, I’m sorry to hear that your impression of Folkekirken is that it’s all about sins, guilt, and fear. This may be true of many traditional denominations of Christianity (and other religions), but in Folkekirken the general focus is on faith, hope, and love (see http://www.folkekirken.dk/tro-og-liv/at-vaere-kristen/tro-haab-og-kaerlighed/) – not on the Old Testimental “awe”.
I also think you misunderstand the market when you argue that the church doesn’t “sell” itself or cater sufficiently to the “religious consumer”. I believe it does just that. 83% of Danes are members of the church because they want to have access to the services it provides. No, not everyone feels the need to attend sermons every week, but baptisms and sermons are part of the same package – which 70-80% of the population “buys”, at least once in a while
@Giles
Apart from your wording, I agree that religious doctrine and hierarchical religious “truth” is questionable, and should – at the very least – be confronted and discussed. Incidently, that’s what Luther did in the early 1500′s in Europe, and if you pick up Kristeligt Dagblad, you’ll notice that belief, ethics and human existence are still very much debatable. For that reason, I would posit that Christianity as a philosophy is no less powerful now, due to confrontation, than it was in the hay-days of the Vatican Empire. Viewing it as a philosophy (as I personally do), however, makes it just as viable a way of living and thinking as humanisme, existentialism, realism, kantianism, etc. etc. And no, I would not count belief in Santa Claus among these theories
@ Peter A. Lemmich: Thanks for returning with comments
I agree that the informal authority of Folkekirken is forged by society rather than a religious sub-faith – and that’s my point:
Church no longer guides or leads Danes (or at least very few of us). That also why so many ask “what’s the point?” And as there’s no authority in Church, people can establish a personal relation with their God, and be religious just as well – no need to attend Church for that.
Yes, I know that Folkekirken officially focuses on “faith, hope and love”, but Folkekirken is also a supertanker when it comes to changing its mindset – there are still priest that oppose appointing female priest and (even more) that are strongly against homosexual marriage (as you yourself pointed out). But yes, ultimately, it’s a personal experience.
Where I ultimately think you are wrong, is in assuming that because Danes attend sermons once in a while, they also “buy the whole package”.
Today Church ranges at par with restaurants, party venues, caterers and other practicalities associated with wedding, baptism and confirmation. I.e. we choose the Church that is most convenient for the wedding venue, or we have our babies baptised on Saturdays so we don’t have to sit through a regular sermon, or the confirmation is held at another church so our kids can be together with school friends.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to see what would happen to Folkekirke membership if becoming a member required an active conscious action, rather than today where you have to take an action to not-be a member? It surely wouldn’t be 83% membership…
What is most interesting to me about Danish Christianity is the lack of quality “Free Chuches” and the continual bashing on by Danes that they are sects or cults. This seems to be drummed into them from a young age by teachers and by some religious leaders. Many countries, such as England, USA, Australia, Asia, in fact, most parts of the world, have excellent free churches that are large and offer great substance to the culture. My expereince is that the average Dane, when confronted with a free church christian, look strangely and use the “sect” word for what they dont understand. This is another protectorate concept that a failing Lutheran system will use to keep people to themselves. Danish Lutheranism is on its own though. I have spent considerable time talking to fairly high up religious leaders in Norway and Sweden and most of them say that Danish Luthernarism is on its own when it comes to change and growth. Take the “Christmas” tree neck decoration Danish priests wear, you wont find these anywhere else. They were invented hundreds of years ago to keep dandruft off the black robe of the priest. They mean nothing but nothing has been done to “get with it” They have said that Danes (Religious leaders) believe they have the purest form of Lutheranism and the rest of the world is missing the point. I think Luther would turn in his grave if he could see what they Danes do and believe in Denmark.
‘…God and organised religion is a con-job that should be treated with disdain.’
Making such statements as the one above is not in the spirit of having a respectful debate.
So let us discuss respect. If I deny the holocaust, because this is my heartfelt belief, will you respect it. I suspect not, and rightly so, because there is evidence to the contrary. There is no evidence for God, any God, and that is how it will stay.
Respect must be earnt, not simply given, and is normally reserved for those institutions, people etc….who by their actions they have earnt. Alternatively, if a theory, or premise, is put forward, with supporting evidence (such as evolution) then we must all respect the truth once it has been identified, or at least the best ‘evidence’ we have to support how life progressed to where we are now.
Remember, no religion can ‘prove’ the existence of its particular God (even if I can’t disprove it), so no, I don’t respect anyone’s beliefs, unless they keep then exactly as they should – to themselves. Belief is personal and has no place in the public arena. Belief is not s suitable systme for a modern, democratic, civilised society.
I could could claim ANY belief and not have to prove anything to support that belief. Are you really sayig you will respect anything anyone believes. That, I’m afraid, makes you both gullible and over-polite to start with.
Well, having lived in Denmark many years, I am not sure that I agree with the American version of christianity nor the Danish version either. I do like that politics and religion are a personally choice and that they don’t mix these two up as we are doing in the United States. I also like that society has as high a purpose as the church does and they do not bow to eliminating peoples rights because they do not believe which will most likely be a reality in the USA after the next election ie. can’t be a teacher if you are pregnant and not married or homosexual.
With all that said: a christian is a person that believes in Jesus Christ as God, believes the Bible is true and Jesus rose from the dead and I do not know 1 Dane that believes in any of those. They just say that they are christian because they were raised in a christian society…if only religion was so inclusive.
I agree that religion is personal and should have no place place in the public arena. The sectarian and the secular should be kept separate. I think church and state should be separate to the extent that that that is possible to do. The problem comes about one when tries to impose their beliefs or values on another person or group. But people don’t do that just with religion; people of all types get so dogmatic about their political ideology or so ethnocentric about their culture that they think it is superior. This in turn often creates arrogance and extremism.
But the reality is that religion is often the basis, to one degree or another, of one’s personal value system and therefore sometimes it is difficult to separate one’s value system (and therefore by extension one’s religious beliefs) with the choices that one makes. This is where the lines get blurry if one is a public official or anyone in the public sphere. Although decisions are not completely black and white,
But as for as ‘God’ is concerned, it depends on your definition of God. Do you believe in a literal supernatural force that exists in the universe (the traditional view) or do you believe that ‘God’ is an idea of the mind that is symbolic of our inner subconscious thoughts (the Jungian mythical view). Some religions believe in a literal God; others believe in a symbolic God that represent something deeper in the human psyche.
The solution: keep church and state separate and allow people to ‘live and let live’. Let people believe whatever they want to believe even though we don’t agree with it. If you want to believe that no one ever landed on the moon even though it is the most recorded event in human history or if you want to believe that we are visited by UFOs everyday even though there is no evidence to support that claim, then that is your right but don’t try to impose those beliefs on others…
You are not automatically member of Folkekirken. You become a member by being christened. Since most danes are christened as babies, the misunderstanding arises that we are all members. However, it is true, that if your parents saw to you being christened as a baby, and you as an adult no long want to be part of the Folkekirken, you must resign you membership.
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There is an old danish saying – from Jutland – that “it is better to sit in the inn and think about the church than to sit in the church and think about the inn”.
@Lise Thank you for making that clear. Of course membership isn’t automatic from Day 1, but most Danes, once they start paying taxes, “automatically” pay the 1% because most are baptised. If they don’t want to pay the 1%, for whatever reason, they actively have to exit.
Another contribution to the “automaticness” is that the “Dåbsattest” is created by the church (a piece of paper that basically proves that you were born, and that you were given a certain name), and many Danes don’t know that you can get the same paper, with the same validity (called a “Navneattest”) by contacting the local municipality.
too long… did not read
I live in Denmark, I’m an atheist, but…
Many of my friends consider themselves christians and have been confirmed, I don’t think you have to go to church every sunday(or whatever) to be a christian. does the bible say that? Belief doesn’t include praying your ass off, its just a way for simple people to not panic over the things they do not understand
I think there are two different things: 1. Being a christian 2. Belonging to a church. Perhaps you should talk to a priest because there are so many different opinions on this subject. I often miss belonging to a church as this gives you a social environment.